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作者: 来源: 日期:2016-09-23 8:44:15

Lunch with the FT: Edward Snowden, the world’s most famous whistleblower





Edward Snowden has rounded on his hosts, attacking the Kremlin’s human rights record and implicating Russia in two of the US government’s latest major security hacks.

爱德华•斯诺登(Edward Snowden)抨击他目前客居的国家,他批评克里姆林宫的人权记录,并暗指俄罗斯与近期两起针对美国政府的重大黑客攻击事件有瓜葛。广州翻译公司。


In a Lunch with the FT — carried below — he complained Moscow had “gone very far, in ways that are completely unnecessary, costly and corrosive to individual and collective rights” and added that his greatest loyalty was still to the US.



He described the leak last month of NSA espionage tools, potentially by Russia as an “implicit threat” to the US government. Efforts by hackers called the Shadow Brokers to auction off NSA computer code used to break into foreign networks were an attempt to show Washington how vulnerable it was, he added.


Snowden insisted that all dealings with Russian officials were conducted by his lawyer. “I don’t have a lot of ties to Russia and that’s by design because, as crazy as it sounds, I still plan to leave.”



. . .


Edward Snowden is not the easiest lunch date. The former National Security Agency operative doesn’t fancy talking in a Moscow restaurant so — via an intermediary — we settle on meeting in my hotel and risk the room service. He will present himself at the agreed time. That’s all I need to know.



In the end he’s 20 minutes late, dressed casually in black jeans and black V-neck, buttoned-up T-shirt carrying a pair of unbranded dark glasses. He eyes up the small, dimly lit room 203 of the Golden Apple “boutique” hotel — half an hour’s gentle stroll from the Kremlin — with the look of a man who has spent too much time in such places.

结果斯诺登迟到了20分钟。他一身休闲打扮,穿着黑色牛仔裤和一件保守的黑色VT恤,戴着一副没有品牌logo的墨镜。他打量了一番金苹果“精品”酒店(Golden Apple)——从这里溜达到克里姆林宫需要半小时——狭小昏暗的203号房间,一副在这种地方住过很长时间的样子。


How does it compare with room 1014 of the Mira Hotel in Hong Kong, where in June 2013 — having shared many of the NSA’s most closely guarded secrets with a few handpicked journalists — Snowden spent a week as the most wanted man in the world?

这个房间和香港美丽华酒店(Mira Hotel)1014号房间比起来怎样呢?20136月他在那个房间里住了一周,作为世界头号通缉犯——在他与挑选的几名记者分享了美国国家安全局许多最严加保守的秘密之后。


A bit smaller, but not dissimilar,” he says. “The Hong Kong room had a glass bathroom wall here,” he adds, pointing to a bland wall featuring an obligatory hotel watercolour.



The interior of the Mira hotel room is about to become much better known with the US release next week of Oliver Stone’s biopic about Snowden, which stars Joseph Gordon-Levitt in the whistleblower’s role. Much of the tensest, most claustrophobic action is filmed in a reconstruction of room 1014 built inside a hangar-like studio in Munich.

美丽华酒店1014号房间内的布置将随着一部影片的上映而更加为人们所知。奥利弗•斯通(Oliver Stone)执导的斯诺登传记片于916日在美国上映,约瑟夫•戈登-莱维特(Joseph Gordon-Levitt)饰演泄密者斯诺登一角。片中最紧张、最具幽闭恐惧气氛的镜头是在慕尼黑一个飞机库般的摄影棚内重建的1014号房间里拍摄的。


During that intense week three years ago, Snowden and two Guardian reporters worked on those first stories disclosing the full capabilities that intelligence agencies can now deploy against populations. When he revealed himself as the source, he was acclaimed as a hero by some — others recommended the electric chair. I had never met him and was entirely reliant on the judgment of our veteran reporter, Ewen MacAskill, who rang to report (in pre-arranged code owing something to Hollywood) that “the Guinness is good”.

3年前他住在美丽华酒店1014房间的那一周过得相当紧张,因为他的爆料,两名《卫报》(Guardian)记者写出了第一波披露当今情报部门能够使用在民众身上的全部监听能力的报道。在他披露自己是消息来源后,一些人将他誉为英雄,另外一些人提出应该让他坐电椅。我那时候还没有见过他,我对他的全部认知都来自于我们的资深记者尤恩•麦卡斯基尔(Ewen MacAskill)的判断,他和斯诺登会面后,打电话来汇报——学好莱坞电影使用事先商量好的暗号——“吉尼斯很棒”(译注:表示斯诺登的消息是真实的)。广州翻译公司。


I first saw his face about an hour before the rest of the world, when MacAskill filed his video interview to New York. Like everyone else there I was struck by his stubbled youth and impressed by his thoughtful articulacy. Today, at 33, there’s a touch less stubble, and the hair is a smidgen longer. He says he moves freely around Moscow, seldom recognised, which is surprising since he has changed little since that first picture of him etched itself on our consciousness.

我第一次看见他的面孔大约比世界上其他人早一个小时——由劳拉•波伊特拉斯(Laura Poitras)拍摄的、麦卡斯基尔和格伦•格林沃尔德(Glenn Greenwald)两位记者采访斯诺登的视频被发送到了纽约。就像在场所有其他人一样,斯诺登的年轻——他蓄着胡茬——让我震惊,他的思维缜密和能说会道也让我印象深刻。现在,33岁的斯诺登脸上的胡茬少了一点,头发也比那时候长了一点。他说他在莫斯科可以自由地到处走,很少被人认出来,这一点让人惊讶,因为从他的第一张照片给我们留下印象以来,他几乎没什么变化。


Reading the laminated room-service menu card, complete with English translations, he is tempted by the spicy chicken curry with rice and chilli sauce. I go for the risotto with white mushrooms and a “vinaigrette” salad with herring. Snowden — skinny thin — decides he can’t resist the crab cakes, too. We telephone the order for the food, with mineral water.



He has been unwillingly marooned in Moscow since 2013 when — the subject of a giant manhunt — he was forced to leave Hong Kong. How’s his Russian coming on? He confirms it’s up to ordering in a restaurant, but is reluctant to elaborate. “All my work’s in English. Everybody I talk to I speak to in English,” he says. “I sleep in Russia but I live all around the world. I don’t have a lot of ties to Russia. That’s by design because, as crazy as it sounds, I still plan to leave.”



He lives “mainly” on Eastern Standard Time and spends most of his waking hours online — “but it always has been so”. He admits he misses the “sense of home” represented by America, “but technology overcomes most of that divide. For me, I’m a little bit of an outlier to begin with because, remember, I signed up to go work overseas for the CIA and overseas for the NSA. So it’s really not that much different from the postings that I had for the US.



The only difference is that I’m still posted overseas and I work for the US but they don’t realise it.” As anyone who follows him on Twitter knows (he follows just one account: the NSA) he is capable of a very dry wit.



He has seen a version of the Stone movie on one of the director’s trips to Moscow, during which Snowden says he would talk to Stone’s co-writer, Kieran Fitzgerald, about “trying to keep the film a little bit closer to being reality”.

有一次斯通来莫斯科时,给斯诺登看了他拍的电影,那时他表示愿意和斯通的联合编剧基兰•菲茨杰拉德( Kieran Fitzgerald)谈谈如何“让影片更贴近现实一点”。


But,” he shrugs, “I know it’s a drama, not a documentary.”



How would he score it out of 10? He avoids a rating. “On the policy questions, which I think are the most important thing for the public understanding, it’s as close to real as you can get in a film.”



He met Gordon-Levitt in Moscow and thought him “an amazing guy . . . we had lunch together, talked for several hours just about everything, our personal lives — what we think about, what we care about. At the time I thought it was just a social visit but, after the fact, he told me that he was actually scoping me out, trying to get my mannerisms.”



Having interviewed Gordon-Levitt’s “Snowden” as part of my own cameo in the film, I can vouch for how well he captures the real thing. Snowden was impressed, too: “His characterisation of me makes me uncomfortable, with the super-deep gravelly voice, but that’s because you never hear your own voice the way other people do, right?”



Was he moved by the film, which in flashback revisits the episodes in his life that led to what he calls his “tortured” decision to engineer the biggest leak of classified documents in history? “There’s always going to be something emotional about seeing something that you did retold as a story by other people. It shows a reflection of how your choices matter to them. Three years later, seeing what we thought was going to be a five-day story still being reported on [makes me think] that I wasn’t crazy.”



 . . . 


There’s a knock on the door — which would have caused a spasm of paranoid anxiety in the Mira in 2013. Now it’s just room service. The floor is so small the waiter balances the tray on the bed and Snowden has to perch his chicken curry on his knee. The water is missing. My vinaigrette salad turns out to be cubed beetroot. I avoid the herrings.



Once he nods at the iPhone recording our interview and expands on a point “in case someone is listening”. The first time I met him — to see how he was surviving in his new circumstances in spring 2014 — my iPhone had displayed a giant red thermometer, a sign of alarming overheating. Snowden had observed mildly it was because so many different people were trying to listen in.



He confirms he received no money from the movie, adding of his tangential experience of Hollywood: “When I was told that there was going to be a film made about me, it was a scary thing, one of the most terrifying things I can imagine. But, looking back, I hope it helps, I’m cautiously optimistic that it will.”



He looks back over the period since the revelations and reflects that all three branches of government in the US — Congress, courts, president — have changed their position on mass surveillance. “We can actually start to impose more oversight on spies, rather than giving them a free pass to do whatever simply because we’re scared, which is understandable but clearly not ethical.”



What of subsequent developments in the UK, where the government’s response has been to propose laws that not only sanction, post hoc, the intelligence activities that were revealed to be happening, but extend them? He says it was not his intention to tell the world how to structure their laws, but to give people a voice in the process. “The laws have gotten worse in some countries. France has gone very far, so too, of course, countries like Russia, China. In Britain there’s an authoritarian trend.



We don’t allow police to enter and search any home. We don’t typically reorder the operation of a free society for the convenience of the police — because that is the definition of a police state,” he says, mopping up the last of the rice. “And yet some spies and officials are trying to persuade us that we should. Now, I would argue there’s no real question that police in a police state would be more effective than those in a free and liberal society where the police operate under tighter constraints. But which one would you rather live in?”



He has finished his curry and pronounces it “quite good”. The crab cakes are abandoned after a bite. “Less good,” he says. We order ice cream — vanilla, strawberry and chocolate for him, sorbet for me. The voice on the phone launches into a complicated explanation of why, with five scoops in all, we can have a discount.



Does he never lose sleep at night wondering whether Isis terrorists might not have gained some useful advantage from the information he disclosed?



Well, firstly, he says, in all the recent European attacks the suspects were known to the authorities, who thus had the ability to target them without having to scoop up everyone else’s data as well. Secondly, he points out, Osama bin Laden stopped using a mobile phone in 1998 — not because of leaks to newspapers but because “there is an aggressive form of Darwinism in terrorist circles. Long before we, the public, know about any of these surveillance measures, they have already known for years because, if they had not, they are already dead.

噢,首先,他说,在欧洲最近发生的所有袭击事件中,当局知道这些嫌疑人,他们有能力把他们列为目标,而不必搜集所有其他人的数据。其次,他指出,奥萨马•本•拉登(Osama bin Laden)1998年就不使用移动电话了——不是因为谁对报纸泄的密,而是因为“恐怖分子的圈子里有一种生猛的达尔文主义。早在我们——公众——知晓任何这类监听措施之前,他们已经知道好多年了,因为如果他们不知道的话,他们早就死了。”


But,” he goes on, “let’s say that the newspapers had decided this should not be public. Let’s say the intelligence services had been able to continue using these programs in secret. Would it have stopped any of the terrorist attacks that have occurred in the last three years? There’s no public evidence that that’s the case. In fact, there’s no classified evidence that that’s the case, or else we’d be reading it in the newspapers.”



We move on to talking about stories alleging Russian hacking of the NSA itself and of the Democratic party’s governing body, the Democratic National Committee. The former involved a group calling itself the Shadow Brokers, who threatened to auction very sophisticated alleged NSA surveillance tools. The latter was a collection of DNC emails published — to general embarrassment — by WikiLeaks in July.

我们接着谈论美国国家安全局本身以及美国民主党的管理机构——民主党全国委员会(Democratic National Committee)遭到俄罗斯黑客入侵的传闻。前者涉及一个自称“影子经纪人”的组织,威胁要拍卖非常先进的据说是美国国家安全局所使用的监控工具。后者涉及维基解密(WikiLeaks)7月公布的民主党全国委员会的一批邮件——让民主党上下都脸上无光。


The Shadow Broker leak, says Snowden, “doesn’t strike me as a whistleblower: that strikes me as a warning. It’s political messaging being carried out through information disclosure.” And the DNC hack, where, as he observes, the conventional wisdom is that it was the Russians? “This is part of the problem of this surveillance free-for-all that we’re allowing to occur by refusing to moderate our own behaviour. We’ve set a kind of global precedent that anything is possible and nothing is prohibited.



Now, the fact the DNC got hacked is not surprising and interesting. We’re hacking political parties around the world, so is every country. What makes it interesting is that some of the things taken from this server were published afterwards. That’s quite novel. I think.”



Which makes him think what? “That it’s for political effect.”



He says — as someone who used to try and do this sort of thing to the Chinese — that it would be easy to attribute the hack to whoever had done it. “But this creates a problem because, let’s say, the NSA has the smoking gun that says the Russians hacked the DNC, and they tell us the Russians hacked the DNC, how can we be sure? It presumes a level of trust that no longer exists.”



The ice creams arrive along with an espresso, replacing the first set of dishes on the bed. Snowden spills a bit of chicken curry on the duvet and apologetically mops it up with a towel.



Aren’t we beginning to discover that no digital databases are secure? “We are living through a crisis in computer security the likes of which we’ve never seen,” he says. “But until we solve the fundamental problem, which is that our policy incentivises offence to a greater degree than defence, hacks will continue unpredictably and they will have increasingly larger effects and impacts.”



The answer, he thinks, is that there ought to be some form of liability for negligence in software architecture, such as would apply in the food industry. He adds, drily: “People from my tribe will be extraordinarily mad at me for suggesting regulation in the terms of negligence for software security.”



 . . . 


He has finished his ice cream and declines coffee. Life in Moscow is getting better, he says: “I’m more open now than I’ve been since 2013.” He sees few people — such meetings as this are rare — and divides his time between public speaking (which pays the bills) and devising tools to protect the digital security of journalists. He would rather not go into “the family stuff” or how often he sees Lindsay Mills, his partner, who was left behind in Hawaii when he quit his job for the NSA there and disappeared to Hong Kong.

他吃完了冰淇淋,谢绝了咖啡。他说,在莫斯科的生活越来越好了,“比起2013年事情发生后的一段时期,我现在更开放了。”他见的人很少,类似这次的会晤十分少见。他的时间主要用在公开演讲(由此带来的收入用于支付各种账单)和设计供记者使用的保护数字信息安全的工具。他不愿谈及“家事”,也不肯透露多久见一次林赛•米尔斯(Lindsay Mills)。后者是他的女朋友,在他从美国国家安全局离职跑到香港以后被留在了夏威夷。


His American lawyer, Ben Wizner at the American Civil Liberties Union, is reported to be preparing to launch a petition to President Barack Obama to grant Snowden a pardon before he steps down. Snowden will only say: “Of course I hope they’re successful but this has never really been about what happens to me. No matter how the outcome shakes out, it’s something I can live with.”

据报道,他的美国律师、美国公民自由联盟(American Civil Liberties Union)的本•维茨纳(Ben Wizner)正准备向美国总统巴拉克•奥巴马(Barack Obama)请愿,希望奥巴马在卸任前赦免斯诺登。对此斯诺登只表示:“我当然希望他们成功,不过这完全与我个人境遇无关。不论结果如何,我都可以接受。”广州翻译公司。


His chances of a happy ending under President Donald Trump would be zero, I observe. What about under President Hillary Clinton? “You’re trying to drag me into a political quagmire,” he protests. He collects himself, looking intensely at the ground, before sidestepping the question: “I think we should have better choices. We’re a country of 330m people and we seem to be being asked to make a choice between individuals whose lives are defined by scandal. I simply think we should be capable of more.”

我看,若是唐纳德•特朗普(Donald Trump)当了总统,他这事得以善终的可能性必然为零。但如果是希拉里•克林顿(Hillary Clinton)总统呢?他抗议道:“你在把我拖入一个政治难题。”他紧紧地盯着地面,凝神想了一会儿,还是没有正面回答这个问题,而是说道:“我认为,我们应该有更好的选择。我们是个拥有3.3亿人的国家,而我们却似乎被要求在各个丑闻缠身的人之间做出选择。我就是认为,我们应该能有更多选择。”


If he’s tough on the options in US politics, his willingness to tweet criticism of Russian politics to his 2.3m followers has not gone unnoticed. “A lot of people who care about me tell me to shut up, but if I was married to my own self-interest, I never would have left Hawaii.



I can’t fix the human rights situation in Russia, and realistically my priority is to fix my own country first, because that’s the one to which I owe the greatest loyalty. But though the chances are it will make no difference, maybe it’ll help.”



He gathers up his dark glasses: it’s time for him to melt into the Moscow crowds. A final question: the Stone film shows him spiriting his trove of secrets out of the NSA on a micro-SD card hidden in a Rubik’s Cube. True or false?



Oliver confirmed in an interview recently that that’s a touch of the dramatic licence, but that’s only because I wouldn’t confirm or deny how it really happened. I will say that I gave Rubik’s Cubes to everyone in my office, it’s true. I really did that.” And with that he is gone.



Alan Rusbridger was editor of the Guardian from 1995-2015. It won the 2014 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service for the revelations Illustration by James Ferguson

艾伦•拉斯布里杰(Alan Rusbridger)1995年至2015年期间任《卫报》(the Guardian)主编,该报因斯诺登爆料事件赢得2014年普利策公共服务奖(Pulitzer Prize for Public Service)